Welcome to the PleinAir Podcast with Eric Rhoads. In this episode Eric chats with Pierre Guidetti, CEO and co-founder of Savoir-Faire, which makes the original paints used by the first Impressionists. Guidetti is both an art supply historian and an advocate of the arts. If you paint with oil, you do not want to miss this interview.
Listen as Pierre Guidetti shares the following:
• The path that led him from France to California, where he became fascinated with techniques for making art materials – specifically colors
• Thoughts on the different art cultures in America, France, and Italy
• The story of how Senelier pastels were developed in the US, and how paint tubes came about for artists
• The happening that changed Monet’s entire theory of color mixing
• and so much more
“Not only is art good for you…art is good for the world.” ~ Pierre Guidetti
Bonus! Eric Rhoads, author of Make More Money Selling Your Art, shares thoughts on resources for pricing your art, and why marketing is critical to getting your work seen and sold in this Art Marketing Minute Podcast.
Listen to the PleinAir Podcast with Eric Rhoads and Pierre Guidetti here:
– Savoir-Faire / Senelier online: https://www.savoirfaire.com/
– Eric Rhoads on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ericrhoads/
– Eric Rhoads on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/eric.rhoads
– Sunday Coffee: https://coffeewitheric.com/
– Plein Air Convention & Expo: https://pleinairconvention.com/
– Plein Air Salon: https://pleinairsalon.com/
– Publisher’s Invitational: https://publishersinvitational.com/
– Value Specs for Artists: https://streamlineartvideo.com/products/paint-by-note-red-glasses
– Paint by Note: https://paintbynote.com/
– The Great Outdoor Painting Challenge TV Show: https://thegreatoutdoorpaintingchallenge.com/casting-call
– Figurative Art Convention & Expo: https://figurativeartconvention.com/
FULL TRANSCRIPT of this PleinAir Podcast
DISCLAIMER: The following is the output of a transcription from an audio recording of the PleinAir Podcast. Although the transcription is mostly correct, in some cases it is slightly inaccurate due to the recording and/or software transcription.
Eric Rhoads 0:00
This is episode number 176. Today we’re featuring Pierre Guidetti, who we like to call the professor of art materials. He’s with Savoir Faire.
This is the plein air podcast with Eric Rhoads, publisher and founder of plein air magazine. In the Plein Air podcast we cover the world of outdoor painting called plein air. The French coined the term, which means open air or outdoors. The French pronounce it plenn air. Others say plein air. No matter how you say it. There is a huge movement of artists around the world who are going outdoors to paint and this show is about that movement. Now, here’s your host, author, publisher, and painter. Eric Rhoads.
Eric Rhoads 1:01
Thank you Jim Kipping, and welcome to the plein air podcast. My name is Eric Rhoads. Happy June to everybody Hope you’re feeling like the end of this is all coming and that you’re about to be free or maybe you are free and out of danger. Let’s hope so. Hmm. I hope you’re able to get out and paint and learn and study and grow. I’m ready to begin my summer I am now finally implanted into the Adirondacks. I’ve just arrived so far so good in locked down because I want to make sure that we are clear. I want to remind you that the plein air convention is coming up and something for you to consider a lot of amazing talent to teach you. We have rescheduled for Santa Fe in August the only time we’re doing a summer convention and you can learn more at pleinairconvention.com I should also remind you to enter your paintings in this month’s plein air salon competition 15,000 cash To the top prize pleinairsalon.com. And if you’re new to plein air painting and you want to learn more, we have a free ebook called 240 plein air tips. It’s free for you at pleinairtips.com and up after the interview, I’m going to be answering your art marketing questions. But first, let’s get right to the interview with the amazing Pierre Guidetti. I hope I said it properly. Pierre Guidetti, Welcome to the plein air podcast. How are you.
Podcast Guest 2:36
All right. Very good.
Eric Rhoads 2:37
All right, so I have always had a rough time pronouncing your last name Guidetti is the pronunciation in French.
Podcast Guest 2:45
Yes, Perfect. The last time just perfectly.
Eric Rhoads 2:50
Yes. Well, Pierre. Well, welcome to the plein air podcast and I wanted to get you on today because I’ve seen you lecture about art materials to the people viewing or the people listening to this. They know you as the guy who runs savoir faire, which is a distributor for many products like Senelier and Raphael brushes and a lot of others, which we’ll get into. But you also are kind of a history buff in terms of the history of the Impressionists, the history of the materials used and so on. Did I get that right? Is that accurate?
Podcast Guest 3:31
Yes, in fact, so thank you. That’s a very good question. Because there are many people who don’t know that side of mine. And they see me as a CEO of savoir faire the co founder with moraine of savoir faire. And, but it’s interesting because early on, for sake of marketing purposes, I studied and research more about the history of the Senelier family which I’m like family. It’s like my adopted family, remember. So I know a lot of… very, very close to the family and I was researching and at the beginning was for marketing reason but…in the eyes of many people have become an expert in searching into this area and particularly the relationship between the Impressionists and the materials. And now in in the academic circles, in the faculty in the big university, they my new nickname for a while is art supply historian.
Eric Rhoads 4:42
Art supply historian. Well, I want to go back before we get into that, how did you end up in the art materials business? You and your wife founded this company? savoir faire which is based in the San Francisco bay area but you’re originally from where in France and how did this all begin? What was your exposure to art materials?
Podcast Guest 5:08
Alright, so…My first my full first name is catyen double first thing but in America you know it’s completely avoidable first name and last 10 years as you pronounce it very well. So Guidetti comes from Nice. My father was from Nice with some long origin with Italian and it was a family of architect and we have very long history in art architecture in on my father’s side then including By the way, making bridge in Paris and other things but that’s a different story. on my mother’s side and from Brittany that’s why my first name…And in Brittany, we’re actually and we hopefully you’ll come there one day, by the way, have turned my state into an artist retreat. But we’ll come to there. So Father from the border of Italy, mother from Brittany, but I myself, was born and grew up in Paris. And my family and particularly on my mother’s side. My mother was always very artistic, even though she was not an actual professional artist. She was very involved in the art community in Paris. So as I grew up, my education was very strong in the arts. And, like here, parents would take their kids to a baseball game
Eric Rhoads 6:49
Or Chuckie Cheese….
Podcast Guest 6:51
Yeah, In, in France, at least in my family, you would go to the museums, it’s a different sort of…go to the museum to the…to the galleries and I will be surrounded and my family I have a lot of artists in my family as well. So I’ve always been artistic. But in my study actually I studied psychology, I was going to be a psycho analyst. I studied with Flacco, you know, fraudulent schools and all that. And then after I switch because I realized I didn’t want to be a psycho analyst following fraudulent rules, which to me appear to be too strict. And he was not I’m more of a free spirit. So I switched to business school, and I went to on my business school. I was supposed to, for my master have an experience abroad. And one of the thing I was talking about I had to find a small company to finance a trip to The US and I’ve selected California because at the time talking about almost 40 years ago, I saw California being the future. And then I paid my trip. So for six months, I came there for six months to to develop a marketing plan, a business plan for this company. And I did, and it was successful. But at the end, I still had a few months to go was in June. And I wouldn’t go back to school finish my master in before like September, October. So I was planning to travel and then I met that young lady in Sausalito, California, beautiful, artistic town across the Golden Gate Bridge for the people who don’t know. And I met that lady and I was very impressed by the fact that that young lady had from a self starter the mini business, teaching art And for that particular technique she was teaching, she was importing from Paris, some special dyes, some special colors. And, I was fascinated that that young lady would, you know, start something like that. Wow, very impressed. And I said, and I was a little upset with the company that paid my trip because even though I laid out a good business plan, he decided not to do it yet and it turned out to be just a study he wanted. So I was a little frustrated. I saw that lady and I made her deal with her saying, you know what, if you want I’ll help you with your business because it sounds interesting, and I think that is opportunities. And she was teaching more than the material was just for them. And then I helped her and instead of traveling, do we…He said okay, I make a deal with you. I can you feed me and house me and, I will work for you for free. And look what it led us. After a month or two trip, I started to do some business finding customers, you went crazy. So then, two months later, I decided to drop out of school, quit France moving to the United States, take all my personal saving and partner with her to create, you know, the corporations of our family. And that lady is has become my wife and the mother of my kids.
Eric Rhoads 10:40
Wow. Ah, what a fabulous story. So I wanted to probe a couple of things that you said. One is, you were amazed that she had done this in the United States is entrepreneurship easier in our culture in the US than it would be say you In in Europe or in Paris?
Podcast Guest 11:03
Yes, very much so. And, now I’m American as well. And I have dual nationality. Yep. And so I’m French, can be fun, and I’m still trying to see these one culture like better than others. And in fact, it’s, I like them both. And I’m trying to, that’s how I raised my kids trying to get best of both cultures. So one of the advantage of the American culture that became so obvious is and now in France, they’ve opened up a little bit since my contact was, not that open traditionally, in France and in Europe in general. But I speak for France so now, it’s…when you want to start something, you have a lot of road bumps and some time, roadblocks. You know, from the tax from the regulations from the bank being shy, but you know, a lot of thing makes it quite hard to just have an idea and just run with it. You have to have a lot of credentials, connections, finance when they were here, that was my point. That’s what I discovered. After six months of doing that sort of internship. I realized here I was 21 years old, and I could just by myself speaking that great English could just open a business just like that. And then I realized what is the point to go back to France to get my MBA and then looking for a job where I’m here place where you have an idea, just do it. So yes, indeed. It’s much easier here.
Eric Rhoads 12:51
Okay, so you said something else too. And you said something like to the effect of unlike in America, where you take you take your kids to a baseball game in France, you’d go to a museum. I think we’ve all noticed those of us who travel is there’s a much higher sensitivity and appreciation for the arts. In Europe, I’ve noticed that also in Russia. Why is it that they are more culturally sensitive, more tuned into the arts in those countries than they are here?
Podcast Guest 13:29
Well, first of all, I don’t have the answer. I can speculate.
Eric Rhoads 13:33
No, you have to come up with an answer. (laugh)
Podcast Guest 13:36
Okay. So the answer would be, so I’ll speak to France, because that’s what I know better. Yeah. And there is a similarity in Italy and France a little similar in this kind of sensitivity. In Russia. It’s a little different. One of the reason Russia has become so strong in cultures because believe it or not, it was you The San Petersburg that the mayor, the governor or the Tsar the point wanted to wanted to do France in Russia. So he was inspired by the French culture in France. So, that is France and Italy, in France in particular, I know better. It has been above and beyond the history Long, long history. Like in Italy, you can talk about the Renaissance, you know, and things like that in France, you can talk about different things, but also the, and it was very strong this week at all this started with Louis the 14th. He has made culture a priority in his politics in his way for many different reasons. You know, that he invented the concept of doing the museum. In fact, some of you know The Louve which was before the royal palace. But then he built another castle in Versailles as you know, and he decided with him and his entourage to open up is all to make it a place for asked to be seen by the people because they thought that people would appreciate better royalty and all that is their access and they can share you know, all the art.
Eric Rhoads 15:35
The art was essentially only available to the exclusive, to the rich and or the churches. Is that right?
Podcast Guest 15:44
Exactly. Yeah. Especially legally the origin of the Renaissance was for churches, you know, most people high in the clergy that would finance artists. And in France then there was the royal family. There was like cool Versailles was very important, and that’s why they’ve always been focused on craft, and everything comes from there as far as you know, from the fashion to the jewelry, to the furniture making to all that was elevated to an art form. And that was also a way to seduce the world and to conquer the world and all that. So they’ve been in France, and in fact, we have a ministry of culture, you know, in France, you have the minister, you know, like secretary of culture, you know, it doesn’t exist in the US because it is very important. It’s an investment and it’s part of so there’s two parts the historical part, but there is also the mindset that our culture is important event for economic or political purposes.
Eric Rhoads 17:00
I think the one thing I’ve noticed is that that people are very aware of what’s going on artistically. The, how do I say this without sounding inappropriate that the average person, the person who is in a, you know, an average, or maybe even menial job is still aware of the Culture and the Arts. Whereas that would not necessarily be the case. It’s almost the opposite in the United States, where it’s, and this is certainly not universal, but it oftentimes seems to be that the, the elite are the ones who are focusing more on the arts. And maybe that’s because of education or lack of education. You know, maybe if somebody goes to college, they’re getting a little bit more of that, etc. I’m just curious, because I’d like to figure out how to how to help our culture adopt more interest in arts.
Podcast Guest 17:57
Yes, and I did too. So that’s one one of the things We have in common is that’s why my other nickname…art supply historian, but the other nickname is activist because even though some reason for the same reason I have been stopped exploring this for marketing recently turned out to be my own personal venture, you know, to just above and beyond business not for the sake of this that’s just I just think my motto is not only that art is good for you, but art is good for the world. And that’s why I’m very personally involved in many different nonprofit situation that I believe and I’m doing everything possible to lobby or to sponsor or to encourage exposure to art, like for instance, and I don’t want to expend too much on that it’s a little deviation from your question, but to give you an idea, like right now during the COVID-19 crisis when the my first reflects even though I’m overworked, because I have to cover for all the employees not here. I’ve made a point. Every week I do I do a major donation or major action, where I partner with local nonprofit association to reach out to kids, kids unprivileged or on service kids or meant to kids with mental disability or things and provide them with quality of supplies, so they can stay sane during confinement. And I find often that teachers that are giving free class to those kids and and I discover amazing people, if you know, and so that’s also because I think it’s very good.
Eric Rhoads 19:47
So I have to collaborate on some of those things. We’ll get together and have a couple glasses of wine and figure out how we can collaborate and take things to the next level in terms of appreciation. And understanding of the arts. So let’s move forward into some historic art. As you said the professor of art materials I would love to hear some of the stories The first one I’d like to hear is how did you get so tight with the people at Senelier I have visited the store I have thanks to you met the family members and it’s quite charming place by the way. So you arranged for me to be a guest there I took my my group of art collectors there one year when we were in Paris.
Podcast Guest 20:41
I remember, yeah.
Eric Rhoads 20:42
And so start with, How did the relationship with the Senelier people and then maybe you could get into a little history of the scenario and their their what what their role was back in the day.
Podcast Guest 20:56
Okay, so first of all for me How did I get to become so close to Senelier? So as I told you before, my wife Maureen, then when she was studying her classes she needed she was teaching self painting, which was an existence he was very popular in France. And here, she started to give a few classes but she had to import that from the store of synergy to store up into so when I had this idea, telling Maureen but you know, they might be more might be a bigger business to do to sell those sell off supplies. You know, what about selling other art supplies? So she had a connection with Dominique, who is by the way, now it has been his prescription has been 40 years. Who was he was trying to sit us for a little bit but she refrained because she wanted to do business. But that’s your typical French sort of seduction relationship. So they didn’t cross that line, but they became friends. I mean, sort of friendly. And then one of the first thing I did was to connect with that, with Dominique Senelier who is the grandson of the founder and started to talk to talk about and I become very interested he was teaching me everything remember, I was at 21 years old, young hippie in San Francisco from California and he was the third generation of very established family in in Paris. So there was a an interesting relationship. But however, for some reason, he trusted us, so he trusted me so then one of the first product above and beyond the silk dyes was promoting then I had to get something different. I mean something else. And I was studying. And I started to wanting to introduce the pastels. That’s, by the way, that’s one of the reason why still today, after 30 years people think, yes, that’s only pastels. That’s just because I identify a lack of good quality pastel in this country. And I was the first to introduce extra soft pastel nowadays to others, but at the time, it was the only one. And I started to introduce pastel the Senelier pastel into the US and for that, at some point, I invited him to come into the US and together, would cross over the country driving hours through takes us New Mexico everywhere. And I would organize lecture and we would call lecture together because he was not speaking good English. And me not great but better English, I would script what he had to say. And in order to script that I got to meet his father, who was retired, but I really went deep into family history. And so I got very, very close to the family, to the point where, in fact, in the US, people were convinced that Dominique was my father. So it became sort of a joke. Because Peter would meet the parties in the US, I saw your parent, your father in Paris, really well. And in fact, so I become by default part of the family and ever since. I am like family, and he’s my best friend, my mentor, he told me, he taught me everything. And we are super, super tight and in fact, he’s done Her name is Sophie, who’s now taking over from from, you know, president of the company. We call each other brother and sister. So she’s my little sister. So that’s for the first part. Then you want to know how Senelier started?
Eric Rhoads 25:18
I’d like to talk about that. Well, first off back in the day, what was the state of art materials? There was no tubed paint at the time. Well, how did artists survive?
Podcast Guest 25:31
Yeah, okay. So he sees that he sees exactly everything came together. That’s a us two question that comes and as one answer for both your questions, so we all came together. I’m trying to keep it short and sweet.
Eric Rhoads 25:47
You’re doing a great job.
Podcast Guest 25:49
So, first of all, you have to imagine that prior to the 19th century, two things First of all, there was a lot pigment that was limited of pigment and certain color were very hard to make very, very expensive and difficult to preserve and impossible to travel with. So most great artists prior, you know, from 18th century up to the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century, most artists had an assistant who would make the paint ground the paint, you know, there was no real art supply stores didn’t exist, there was some ingredients that you would find in your sort of a hardware store type of things that they had many different things. So you buy some pigment, but you would make your paint and then if you move, you put your paint into pig’s bladder. You know, that’s how you would carry the paint.
Eric Rhoads 27:01
Once you mixed it,
Podcast Guest 27:03
Yeah, well, after you ground the paint and mix it and you ground it, you know, we start
Eric Rhoads 27:10
Basically, sausage casing for those who don’t know what that would be, essentially.
Podcast Guest 27:15
So they put it in that bladder is not physical, you know, and then tidy it up, and that’s with the color, so it won’t dry. And that’s how you would carry it to preserve it. So then, so few things happen. And that’s one one of my lecture that I give. That was my first big lecture that actually ended up being a book. There’s a book on suddenly that’s based on my lecture, but they first give that lecture. It was at Christie’s during the impressionist Big Show, auction house and don’t don’t initially see a college art Association and he was I was giving a lecture in front of hundreds of scholars and then the next day at Christie’s in front of hundreds of collectors dealers and is basically to draw a parallel between what I called the Industrial Revolution and the artistic revolution. So, it’s like and when I give that lecture to art school or university, I kid with the student what came up the chicken or the eggs? So the question I raised it, who Okay, who what happened first? Is it thanks to the Industrial Revolution, the discovery of…, the cube, the metal all these things traveling that had influenced the artist in Paris to break into the mold of the academia and stock Impressionism which the birth of modern art movement or is it the artist that wanted to break three free and put pressure on the manufacturer to design and develop new color new tubes and alaba. So this is so this is one of my lecture, I guess it’s about that. So what happened in 19 century So, two three major thing in my opinion. One is the Discover of new pigments. To give you an idea. Prior to the 19th century, the blues for instance, the blues, you had to buy, lapis lazuli, you know, semi precious stone that you had to get from Afghanistan, I have to tell you to in the 19th century or 18th century to go to Afghanistan to get your blue was sort of expensive, and then to make it and what happened early 19th century two major breakthrough one is the invention of Ultramarine Blue by French engineer that was you know, contest from the government and then the cobalt blue also by your friends guy. So you know the Cobalt was invented by Luigi Jacques [tena] and he was working at the porcelain factory serve and then it’s for the salesperson and he created invented it find a way to make cobalt blue, you know, the ultramarine, which is a sort of a synthetic pigment, one of the first analytic pigment was done by … in the 1830s. And so that just the fact to be able to afford that’s too much on only two but I can give you when we have more time is your time I can give you dozens of those pigment that changed the world of art. And that’s One thing, we can go on if you have more questions you can, but the second, it’s also ironically, was invented there was the invention of the tube. So the tube was invented in actually by an American person in the mid 18 19th century, but he was started to be he to be in Paris. And similarly maybe in England, but I know the story from Paris that sucked about using that new device that was more invented to to put some more medical thing you know, to put some cream to, to help for doctors and things like that. And he was in France. That was the idea to use it for pen in fact, He was in LA, but he was also bourgeoisie. Well, you know, at the time there was two other companies one to look for the other one was well, since they merged the part of a big corporation, but of the one that stayed in the Family Center, he was one of them. And he’s the only one left from the family. So even though it wasn’t the only one but he’s the only one left of the genuine, the first to make to use this new device can have a tube to put paint so imagine all of a sudden the artist had great quality, color, new bride, you know beautiful strong color that were light fast. And then that you can carry so what happened all of a sudden and you are very knowledgeable about that movement, and that what about now he can paint plein air so because You can have the paint you can carry the paint with you simultaneously there was we’re also developing new easel collapsible it’s all like the French type book he saw and things like that. And another thing was the invention of metal ferrels you know prior to that and it’s funny because you mentioned it in one of your live Instagrams. And he was you were referring to max Ginsburg, of brush he uses. That was the first brush because because thanks to the way we could treat, we can make metallics fail before you couldn’t we didn’t have the technology. So then you can have flat brush, flat brush led to the freedom for some of these, like the impression is to do to make bold strokes.
Eric Rhoads 33:52
So…mean you’re the company that you represent, which is Rafael. They made the first brush, That was the first. According to you, what you told me is they made the very first flat brush all brushes before that were round. Is that correct?
Podcast Guest 34:11
Yeah, before it was long. And you would attach the head of the brush with a quill fabric or string or something to attach the hair, the test of the brush onto a handle. But thanks to the new technology and then century, they were able to make it flat. And if I fail, but he was not…then it’s only the mid 20th century that they decided to change before he was called. You know the name the name of the of the of the people.
Eric Rhoads 34:47
What is the name of that brush use you’re still making it today. What’s the name of that brush and the brush line?
Podcast Guest 34:54
I think you you’re you’re referring to Paris classic Paris classic. It’s the one with a Copper top.
Eric Rhoads 35:01
Yep, that’s the original. They had copper in the original if you’re, if I remember correctly. So I want to just kind of move on into a couple other areas and one thing you’re from France, how do you say plein air? What is the pronunciation?
Podcast Guest 35:35
Plein air. You know, it’s kind of interesting. So just so you understand the plan, I mean, full of is plugged in full. And air is the air. So plein air. And actually, the expression is en plein air. So it’s the right expression in French is en plein air. Yeah, operate in the full air
Eric Rhoads 36:07
Which essentially means being outside
Podcast Guest 36:10
Yeah. But you do something en plein air like it’s an activity the expression comes you paint inside or you paint outside yeah you paint en plein air you know full air around you, the notion as a plein air meaning you could be outside but protected and plein air I mean you have you fully connected with the elements.
Eric Rhoads 36:38
I have found some references in books, really old books using the term plein air and which was even before the impressionist but it was really the impressionist who got credit for the creating this idea of painting outdoors Now there were painters Italian painters tasi for instance painted outdoors, way before the Impressionists back in the, you know, the 1500s or so. But most of them didn’t call it plein air at the time. So do you have any ideas about the origins of applying the idea of painting en plein air? Is it just they were that was like us saying, Hey, I’m gonna go paint outside. Is that essentially what that meant?
Podcast Guest 37:25
Yes. I’m gonna apply en plein air instead of in studio, you either in studio, in atelier or plein air.
Eric Rhoads 37:37
I’ll tell you atelier is also one that we term that we hear a lot and that is essentially the studio or the, the training studio of an artist. Is that correct?
Podcast Guest 37:49
Yeah. So ithas been distorted a little bit, you know, and that is just a studio. Okay. And, then it became the utterly big, successful artist would have a big studio. And that’s some time in their studio. They had apprentice, you know, they had,
Eric Rhoads 38:20
Studying under them, helping them. Yeah,
Podcast Guest 38:22
Yeah, it was actually a teacher but there was still a sister apprentice that would prime the canvas and we treat you know, like I said before, make the paint and so forth. So usually an artist would have a following, you know, so the studio is so big that they would be and I think that’s what the American he threw me off. By the way at the beginning now it’s becoming a big trend to call an atelier actually now in America, which I discussion but people do understand what actually means here because it’s a French word that doesn’t mean exactly what it means in France. It’s more of a school. So I wouldn’t, so we go to – just so you know – in France, we call that Academy.
Eric Rhoads 39:07
Yeah. So Pierre, and not to put you on the spot, you may or may not know this, but do you have any stories of the impressionist or anything that we may or may not have heard because, you have the stories from the Senelier family and so on. And any stories about you know, any of those guys?
Podcast Guest 39:30
I have many, and I don’t know which one to pick out. I’ll pick a couple if you want.
Eric Rhoads 39:38
Yeah, we have 15 minutes left, and so pull out a couple. We’d love to hear.
Podcast Guest 39:44
Yeah. So I’ll give you a couple. But like you said, Now I give so many lecture …So I’m giving you five minutes of an hour lecture of five or 60 lecture. So I’m just giving you a little teaser. But if in the future if we want, we can I can have a lecture or talk or whatever, specialized on one of those themes. I’ll give you a couple of the top of my head one, which I think is particularly interesting. But they’re all fascinating, one way or the other, but one, which I think is quite remarkable is because of who is very famous, you know, you heard of Claude Monet, Monet, you know, Monet, not Manet. Manet, I have another story about Manet. Which, by the way, it’s, it’s because of thanks to one painting of Monet that the name Impressionism came about…So anyway, but something that many of your keep your the artists that follow you and all that know is the limited palette so when I was one of the one who have in store and was trying to convince his peers that we don’t need all those colors you know you can work on limited palette, no black, no mixed colors, no blah blah blah and you have these six or seven color these being of his life and then one day actually we discovered manganese violet, you know, so he was a pure was not like a mix. He was not a violet mixing, blue and red. He was a naturally pure violet from manganese. And one day when he discovered that color, he was so impressed. That actually is all it change his entire theory of color mixing and things and he started to use violet in his painting, and then he started to promote that complimentary color of a yellow and violet. And you see a lot of these studying to that point. He was using violence for his shadows and like the famous haystack, you have a bright yellow and then violet. And that’s kind of a story. You know that? How a color the invention, the development of a new pigment can change someone’s tone, philosophy and style of painting.
Eric Rhoads 42:45
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and we’ve all had it happen to us in some cases in terms of our own style, but yeah, that was that was definitely revolutionary. Other Stories.
Podcast Guest 42:57
You know, I want to go back to the two because I just run across. I have a good friend who writes book and she sent me her book and I’d like to quote someone. And some of you Her name is Victoria Finley, she she wrote books on colors. And then I want to tell you something. A quote from her. It will take two seconds. So I’ll just read it and we’ll take it. Yeah, without oil paint…, quote, there would have been no Cezanne, no Monet, no…. or Pissarro nothing of what the journalists were later to call Impressionism and of quote, The painter, Pierre Auguste Noah once told his son so this is a quote from [Anwar kiya Augusto Noah]. We told his son, john, well, you may know him, he was a very famous movie maker. So this is to tell you this is a very famous quote from Anwar, and I thought it was quite strong in lieu of what we just talked about. Let me think of a sample… Sergeant. You know, Sergeant was American originally, but he was connected with Europe because he lives in Italy, but he decided to go to to France because Paris was very the capital of the art in the 19th century where people from all over the world will come to me this study at the…To show so it was really the place to be and see further cross collar at the center you still because the center is just next to likkle the bazaar so most of those people come all over the world we stopped by the store at some point and and he discovered that he was looking for that color as well and then he discovered that color called brown pink. And ever since that he was really in love with that color code brown pink, which is not pink at all. It was pink, but at the time pink meant yellow in English in Old English so anyway is a funny story of and he would come to Paris specially to get this brown pink. Okay, one more just one that when I was thinking about the one last one Yep. You know, another color that was invented in the Later 1970 was cadmium yellow. The Cadmium Red came later in the 20th century but the yellow was the first cadmium discovered. So when, and you know, Van Gogh, not Vincent but Theo was to his brother was an art dealer. His galley was actually next very close to the…the same…and for some reason Van Gogh Vincent got some of these yellow from his brother, or when he came to Paris once, so when he was in out and he was having his trouble I mean, there’s different theories about why what happened to Vincent but one thing for sure, and we have the trace of it. Vincent with Cole, I mean a right to his brother to make sure he gets the yellow, that new amazing yellow from the Sennelier store and after that you could see he was using yellow like crazy you have the subtle flowers
Eric Rhoads 47:10
Cadmium Yellow, Are they still using all the original formulas or have they modernized the formulas What if I were to buy a tube today of Cadmium Yellow from similarly a is that essentially what Van Gogh would have used?
Podcast Guest 47:32
Yes for cadmium yellow, the cobalt blue many of the scholars we have today we have about 144 colors out of that I would say two thirds of it are from original formula. There are a few colors that we stopped making either because of toxicity or because of light fastness are because of we cannot have we cannot use it Have it anymore. But when we can, and when there is no reason to just Yes, we still have a lot and carry on yellow would be one of those.
Eric Rhoads 48:10
Okay, so I want to make a couple of quick questions because you brought up some things and I know we’re running low on time but just quick answers on these things. Talk to me about light fastness. You know, we’ve all heard that alizaron Crimson is one that fades over time. Oftentimes reds tend to fade when there’s a lot of light on but especially alizarin crimson, what has been done to overcome that or what can be done to overcome that
Podcast Guest 48:37
Okay. So, first of all, light fastness is a interesting notion that in my opinion is somewhat subjective, even if Association like the ASTM, which I belong to in the US was trying to standardize and to come up with codes on light fastness prior to that the metro show were giving their own Self grade he will. And ASTM is trying but now recently just found out that actually it’s not as easy because they have to take everything in consideration by law. So, the notion of lights asset is somewhat a little bit of subjective and sometimes also over overkill in my opinion. So he take the Alizarin Crimson for instance. You know, for us, we consider two stars who are familiar, we have a star system, we also use the ACM system, but the original system is based on star system because we have the privilege to be able to work with the Louve or the Met or the MoMA and we see our paint on the wall of those museum and we are very close to the Conservation Department of those museums so we can see live, we don’t do future experiments we we see live those painting…ome super light fast that turn totally black, it changed and all that those we’re not using anymore. Then some like alizarin crimson, which are not fully light fast and they have two stars instead of three. But honestly, some is mainly used for mixing. And you know, unless you do a …pure alizarin crimson and you put it on the sun for hours that you would see an evolution. Otherwise, if you’re using a little bit, you won’t see it. I mean, it may change after 100 years or 50 years and all that so
Eric Rhoads 50:43
So some people are offering products that are permanent alizarons, do you have anything like that.
Podcast Guest 50:49
No, we do have it but we are …it both. The truth is it’s not the same color. So it’s the …key color that looks the most similar hue but doesn’t have the same transparencies and feel and all that. So, to start for me still good days reason, it’s legitimate for some people to continue to use Alizarin Crimson for specific mix or effect. It’s not going to say totally or change colors, other colors without changing. But one last thing about what we did I tell you one very important what we did is we change our oil. We changed from linseed oil, safflower oil, a very special pure safflower oil, because linseed does this yellowing. So when you have time so when you have sensitive color like blues, you know and usually in …there’s a tendency to yellow date and this time it gets a little greener and, and that’s part of life of color, but we have made action to change that by changing the oil that on …, so that gives you an example.
Eric Rhoads 52:02
Okay, that’s a good thing to know. So a lot of us make mediums out of linseed oil, you’re recommending that maybe you make those mediums out of safflower oil,
Podcast Guest 52:11
Something of the color because if you use brown, black, there’s many colors. It doesn’t matter if it yellows a little bit but on sensitive color like blues in particularly. So ideally, there is a reason because linseed does have additional as a different feature and benefit that suffer it doesn’t so it’s a longer conversation but in short, I recommend safflower linseed for aside from the black of your …
Eric Rhoads 52:38
Okay, now the next question and I am going to have to do more lightning round on this because of time but the next question is there were times when you would hear in the past that there were certain colors that you either never mixed together and never put together? Because they would they would create a chemical reaction. Is that still true of any color?
Podcast Guest 53:00
Today not really know most of those colors ah don’t exist anymore.
Eric Rhoads 53:12
Those were colors that were made out of coppers etc yet copper tends to turn brown I’m just curious about the…
Podcast Guest 53:20
…but it could it could happen with a very specific like there is a special blue prussian blue that can react with a certain oil and all that but in general this is not something you should worry about too much.
Eric Rhoads 53:32
All right, so the next question has to do with artists safety you hear a lot of buzz lately about potential dangers of certain materials whether or not you’re breathing them ingesting them, sanding them, getting it through your your skin, do you have any any thoughts on that uses of cadmium or LED paints etc. Is it overblown? What do you think the situation is?
Podcast Guest 54:00
So overblown, especially these days was the problem of health. So I’m not a doctor. So first of all, I don’t want to come across as an authority and everybody should check with their own specialist. However, I think yes, it is a little bit overblown. In general, I started those pigments because I don’t believe those pigment, you interact with them directly even LED. In order for you to get intoxicated with lead, you would have to sand it and snore it. Even if you have a little bit of lead on your skin, he won’t penetrate the skin and he won’t go into your blood vessels. So it is over reaction, but we need to be very careful because there’s been a lot of bad thing done with lead, so to be cautious, better not to use lead. However, that cadmium, he seems so nowadays research and everybody but being considered And all that there is so you have to be careful. In California we have the prop 65, where heavy metal powder could have some concert effect if you, you know, take them somewhere another but there is no really strong proof of that. So as long as you are careful and you don’t snore, eat your paint and you are minimum of cautious. I don’t think it’s it should be an issue.
Eric Rhoads 55:32
If you’re using ground pigments and mixing yourself you have this possibility of a fine dust in the air. Or if you’re sanding…
Podcast Guest 55:41
You should read the mask Yeah.
Eric Rhoads 55:43
Cover your eyes, cover your nose. Do it outdoors if you’re sanding on certain pigments.
Podcast Guest 55:49
Yep, exactly. But the thing which I think people are referring and I feel very, very strongly about that. It’s interesting because I just had a very long conversation with the teacher the last week Think about that is the notion of oil being toxic. There’s a myth. In my opinion, this is my own personal opinion. There’s a big misunderstanding. You know, all those companies are started to make water soluble oil and blah, blah, blah, because oil was stuck. See people were allergic to all the students, you couldn’t do all indoor. This is in my opinion, totally not appropriate because the oil paint itself is non toxic. I mean, and you can debate on some of those heavy metal pigments you take with the tequila, but in general oil is non toxic. What it has been toxic is the overuse of turpentine and or mineral spirit or thinners that have orders that people may get allergic to solvent or to turpentine. So what I recommend that you don’t use First of all, I think people are overusing turpentine, you don’t need to use you can see in your pens with or with other medium natural medium, you don’t need the solvent. And if you need now, there is many, a few, not always the great you have to test that make thinner brush cleaner, medium vanishes, all that based from fruit and vegetable that totally non toxic that you can be used by pregnant women you can take in the plane, you can, you know, and those like at Senelier we came up with it’s called Green for oil. But we’re not the only one that is other things. It’s not mass. You don’t see it everywhere, but it’s a notion. It’s not the oil that gets you dizzy that you are allergic, unless there’s made the exception I’m talking about the majority of people who feel sick or not comfortable or have developed some disease or some reaction on oil paintings, not the paint, if the sooner the cleaner, the medium they use. So
Eric Rhoads 58:08
What are your thoughts on things like odorless solvents.
Podcast Guest 58:15
So I think I have mixed feelings about those. Honestly. I have other company with we make it I’m not pushing it because I think it could be that’s my own personal opinion it could be misleading because even if there is some very reputable company that come up with some order list center, they are not completely of solvent, they just to solvent that they manage to not have the smell, but this thing, it has a smell. It’s also to prevent you to smell too much of it. So if you don’t smell that it’s toxic, you may inhale more of it. You know, it’s like gas in your kitchen in all the gas Doesn’t smell anything you add the smell the bad smell of gas of natural gas, it’s in order to for you to know that there is gas. So for me I’m not hundred percent convinced it’s better to be odorless. Some it’s just the odor some have minimized and the solvent so it’s better. So it’s much better than the full odor …but it’s not perfect so if you are sensitive and if you are allergic to thinner or if you are worried about that I would move away from odorless thinner and go straight to the totally non solvent based
Eric Rhoads 59:44
so a lot of us like to paint with an odorless thinner to do a thin layer underneath. But if you put if you make that layer two, slippery or in cases of using oils If you make that too slippery than laying stuff on top of it is difficult. What do you recommend?
Podcast Guest 1:00:09
Well, they get very technical, I would have to demonstrate to talk more. Well, first of all, if you do layers, you have to stop lean and no fat over lean so and thinner, does make the paint a little leaner. So the idea of having some kind of a thinner is not necessarily a bad idea. But I recommend not to use the thinner straight into using this gum to mix it, you know, they some glazing medium that I would recommend was a very limited thinner in it. And that would be what I would use and if you allege I would stay away from it and use the thing like rainfall or the natural thing that …to stop seeing layers and lean it makes sense. You just have to explain this like cooking so you know it takes a lot of different experimentation but we have to be careful a lot of people believe it’s not as easy it’s like you know what test better these DNA graphs are these cells for your salad you know, I cannot tell you people say you shouldn’t put vinegar you should put lemon some people should do olive oil, Some people prefer another oil, mustard. So it’s really that’s the beauty of art. Think of art painting as a kitchen. Yes to as a kitchen. You have to experiment by yourself.
Eric Rhoads 1:01:42
Archivally, you have paintings that are hanging materials you made materials that are hanging in the Louve that are a couple hundred years old or older. From using scenario paints. archivally is there A “best practice” to make sure that your paintings lasts the longest. Maybe especially if you’re doing plein air paintings, which might tend to be a little thicker and so on. Do you have a a recommended process and then we’re going to need to wrap up.
Podcast Guest 1:02:17
So, first of all, I can tell you my theory, my impression or my thing, but I would refer to high experts that do that all day long. So for me, the it is the first of all the substrate. People underestimate the importance of substrate and the cam but stand up. Yeah, the canvas the linen from coming from France. We prefer linen as canvas. We think it’s more archival, but that could be argued, and it’s stronger and last longer, but it’s more difficult to tighten up. But anyway, so further what’s appropriate to isolate you know, the impact After of the sizing, the priming the gesso all those people underestimate the importance of that. So stretching it right or for plein air panel are very popular because that’s even more archival of on the from from an archival sense to have linen over panel well sized and was a good primer, probably especially plan there probably is the best then after when you paint make sure you do layers you do fat over lean you stopped lean and thin and then you get sicker and fatter as you go. And then after make sure you drive a long time and after it’s fully fully dry, you have to put a good quality varnish and the varnish is there to protect the painting. And then after oxidation is when you will be in the museum if you have applied the right varnish, after 50 years, you can restore your painting, take off the varnish, put a new one, and then your painting is fresh like the day you painted it.
Eric Rhoads 1:04:13
So a lot of artists who are doing plein air events, you know, they don’t have a lot of time for drying, but you do have spots that get dry patches, especially browns and things like that. So a lot of them will take a spray can have, what’s the term I’m looking for? It’s it’s basically half varnish. And they’ll spray that on there. So it’s not a full varnish. And then they’ll say to somebody varnish it six months from now, what’s the proper drying time? And how do you feel about these short term varnish applications?
Podcast Guest 1:04:50
For me, I’m not big on that. If you’re gonna do a sharp turn temporarily vanish. You should use a retouching
Eric Rhoads 1:04:58
Podcast Guest 1:05:01
So retouching that is not the same function using retouching validation. When you are in the process you still painting and you need to rework a little area and you need to do that too isolated and all that. So doesn’t have the same purpose of final varnish and the final varnish, you have to wait and the time I cannot tell you because it depends of the paint you use. In the paint, the thickness, the temperature, the humidity, they so mean. So there is no rule of thumb. Some people add some drier to their paint in many different ways. We’ve developed a paint called…to the left bank of Paris that is actually designed to dry a little faster to help people to do that. So we find a way to make it dry a little faster. So that’s one option. But really I finished with that little story. You know, an opening, you know, in France, an opening You call that a …? You know, …? I would think everybody knows but maybe not. It’s because you would when you paint and you plan a gallery, you would wait keep the painting. And you would only show the painting in the gallery after the painting is totally totally dry. So you wouldn’t show in a gallery or museum I’m …was dry, and the opening was the day you would come and varnish your painting.
Eric Rhoads 1:06:43
Right? So they always had what they called varnishing day where everybody come in and varnish their paintings after they were hung.
Podcast Guest 1:06:51
Yep. And that’s what….come about and when…now the scenario …opening but an opening…So that I’ll tell you that just to give you a piece of trivia but also that reflect the importance of vanishing I know many artists don’t bother with vanishing. You can argue that, but you know, I don’t want also people, artists, contemporary artists today to only look from a retro mirror. I’m inviting artists to know best practice from the past from the museum, but I invite them to experiment. So when an artist comes out, I’m not vanishing, who am I to tell him it’s wrong? I’m not an authority. I can just share my experience. But after that, it’s freedom of speech, freedom of expression, if anything, you know, You can have happy accident and I invite people to experiment to try. But the more they know about the old masters, the more educated they will be. And at least they need to be upfront with debt collectors.
Eric Rhoads 1:08:14
Now, you have been very gracious not to try and sell anything, but I’m going to give you a chance right now. You have a set of paints I gave one away on my live broadcasts recently. You have a set of paints, which is the original colors of the impressionist. Tell me briefly two minutes. Tell me about that as if somebody wanted to be a purist and go out and paint in the original colors of the Impressionists what what are those colors?
Podcast Guest 1:08:48
Well, very quickly, one is that there is not one palette of the impressionist scholars. So the means of All the impressions had the impression is valid, every artist had their own. And it’s true for a while. The first Monet palette was considered the impressionist palette, but even itself changed it when he discovered the violet. So you see, it’s not stable. So I don’t believe that is one what we did what you’re referring to I could and in fact, I’m working on a new communication on our paints To be more specific and trying to give people guidance of which color were original and used by whom and all that it takes a little study and I’m going deeper in that. Well, I can tell you but you’re referring to a set, which by the way, it’s come from one of your good friend who actually and colleague for a while worked with you is Richard Lindenberg when he was working with me, and we first saw and we started together because you remember that lunch like 10-15 years ago when we were talking the plein air. And I was…
Eric Rhoads 1:10:02
For our listeners – what Pierre is referring to is we had lunch, met for the first time in the Bay Area. And he was telling me the story of the Impressionists, and them using his paint. And I said, Pierre, you should be using that as an advertising advantage, you should be talking about this as the original paint that the Monet used or Cezanne, used, etc. So that’s where that conversation led.
Podcast Guest 1:10:28
And that’s why before the convention and then we talked about doing a convention and so forth, but at the time at that lunch, there was Richard and I was shy of being too direct and too commercial to use those name and all that because we are a little more modest by that, the center the family, so but I’m doing it little by little, and thank you for encouraging me, but my point was about that set. So Richard Lindenberg was one of the first really believer on the planet movement. helped me designing that set of eight colors, where together we looked. Among the old colors from the original impression is to today’s American impressionist plein air painter, particularly in California, and trying to combine both to use the original colors but would be easily inspiring to the contemporary American plein air painter. And we came up with that and we call it the plein air set. So and then you call a cat a cat, I learned that it’s very American in French with a colleague, a very sophisticated, a…name, trying to get people very intellectual. But here I learned and you told me that also it’s easier to call a cat a cat, right cat a cat.
Eric Rhoads 1:11:59
Well, Pierre, you Cool Cat, and I’ve enjoyed this conversation. I appreciate you being on the Plein Air podcast today.
Podcast Guest 1:12:08
All right, well, thank you and the way I finish, go paint!
Eric Rhoads 1:12:16
Well, thanks again to Pierre Guidetti. There’s a lot of information in that one lots and lots of information. You guys ready for some marketing ideas?
This is the marketing minute with Eric Rhoads, author of the number one Amazon bestseller make more money selling your art proven techniques to turn your passion into profit.
Eric Rhoads 1:12:36
In the marketing minute I answer your marketing questions which you have emailed to me, Eric@artmarketing.com Also be sure and say where you’re from name and town. Here’s a question from Peter Shorady. It doesn’t say where Peters from says Do you know of any books about the sector. We have pricing art. No, no, the answer is no, I don’t have any idea of any books about the pricing of art. There are literally hundreds of books out there on the psychology of pricing and and pricing specific, but they tend to be pricing in a retail environment. I’ve read lots of them. A lot of them have conflicting information, there’s nuggets you can get from every one of them. But art is something special because art is not a commodity, typically. And as a result, it’s done a little bit differently. Pricing art is something I deal with in my books, my website, my videos, my podcasts. Well, this is podcast now, I guess. Anyway, it’s very dependent on how it’s being sold environment has everything to do with pricing, as does the target audiences. For instance, billionaires and even millionaires think differently than thousand heirs and appealing to that psychologism Pardon. I oftentimes tell the story of the lady who went to the 10th show. Artists tells me the story. She says how much is the painting? He says it’s, it’s $4,000. She writes out 40,000 hands in the check. She says, No, it’s, he says, It’s not for 40,000 it’s 4000. And she says, well, it must not be any good, she rips up the check. So, pricing is you know, a high price oftentimes signals a high value, a high value painting, for instance. But sometimes you have to establish yourself to get high price other times some environments you don’t, but understanding the audiences and the environment, how things are framed, who’s selling it, you know, a high end Art Gallery, a low end Art Gallery, a show, you know, how you do everything really plays into it. Pricing is almost almost always based on the strength of your brand. I mean, if I said I’ve got a Richard Schmid painting for sale or I’ve got a Clyde Aspabig painting for sale. I’ve got a Ken Coleman painting for sale, you’re going to perk up because you know the strength of the brand. If I say, you know, Larry leadbetter than you might not know the strength of the brand. And so if you build your brand, the better your reputation, your reputation for quality, desirability, collectability importance, the better your price is going to be. Of course, scarcity plays into your price as well. If you’re a painter that produces a lot of paintings versus someone who produces very few, that scarcity is important. So you build a strong brand, and you increase your chances of getting higher prices.
Eric Rhoads 1:15:49
Next question, Melissa in Trenton, New Jersey who says many artists feel their art speaks for itself, and they just make the art and they will eventually get discovered why marketing? Well, Melissa, there was a movie called The Field of Dreams. Remember the theme? If you build it, they will come? Well, I think it’s kind of a lie. It’s kind of like the starlet who sits in in the drugstore in Los Angeles in Hollywood, waiting to be discovered, you know, Lana Turner. It happened to Ilana Turner one time hasn’t happened to anybody else that way ever since then, and, and it turns out, by the way, that was made up by a press agent, and it wasn’t the way it worked out. after all. You could wait a long time and never get discovered. Anybody remember thing called the phone book? I mean, why put your number in a phone book just waiting for somebody to call, right? You if you if you know you’re going to get discovered? Well, somebody will figure out how to find you right? Well, your art can speak from itself. But if no one sees it, it’s kind of like if a tree falls in the forest, you know, does it make a sound if your heart might speak for itself, but if nobody sees it, you’ll never be able to hear it speak. It has to have an audience. It has to be exposed. If it’s sitting in a closet in your studio, and it’s never seen, it’s not speaking, if it’s on your website, it’s not necessarily speaking, you know, people think, Oh, I’m gonna put a website together and all of a sudden, my world is gonna change and then they call me and they say, hey, I’ve got a website, but nothing’s happening well, because you’ve got to expose your website, you have to drive people to it, you have to find strategies to bring people in. If it’s just sitting on your website, it’s just as bad as sitting in a closet or almost just as a bad website isn’t something that people typically accidentally stumble on to they might click a link because there’s a story on your website that gets their attention, and that’s Marketing. But that’s rare. So you’ve got to find ways to get people to best specifically look for you. Now, it does happen occasionally for some businesses like hot restaurants starts up and the word travels and every everybody goes there because everybody’s telling everybody else. That’s word of mouth marketing. But the reality is the restaurant was smart, because they invited the right people for the opening. They invited the press, they invited some big influencers, the local mayor, you know, some people who own local businesses, they invited people who are going to talk. And so that’s marketing that’s inviting people. paintings are personal, they’re not going to appeal to everybody. So you’ve got to have lots of eyeballs to connect you to the special person who that painting speaks to and is ready to buy. They’ve got to have the money, the time a place to hang it. It’s got to be perfect timing. That’s why volume in reach can be a good thing, but you don’t want reach everybody you want to reach people who are specially interested, especially interested in art. Now Marketing is kind of like being the kid in class who raises their hand for the teacher. You know, don’t raise your hand, if you’re not willing to get called on. And you know, you might get called on randomly once in a while, but not likely. Or imagine holding a wedding and forgetting to send out the invitations. The invitations are the marketing. Sometimes the entertainment is the marketing invitation, say, you know, we’ve got cool and that gang or somebody like that, playing at our reception. If you want to sell your art, you are in business, you’re in business. And most failures happen in business because they lack marketing. Every business does it. It can be soft, it can be quiet, it can be elegant. It can be loud, it can be obnoxious, it can be awful. You get to choose but without marketing, you starve. Anyway, I hope that’s helpful. That’s the marketing minute.
This has been the marketing minute with Eric Rhoads. You can learn more at artmarketing.com.
Eric Rhoads 1:20:06
Now if you’ve not seen my blog where I talked about art and other things, it’s called Sunday coffee. You can find it and subscribe for free at coffeewitheric.com. I always love doing this podcast. We’ll do it again sometime soon. Hope you enjoyed Pierre. How about we do it next week? I’ll see you then I’m Eric Rhoads, publisher and founder of Plein Air magazine. Remember it’s a big world out there. Go paint. We’ll see. Bye bye.
This has been the Plein Air podcast with Plein Air magazine’s Eric Rhods. You can help spread the word about plein air painting by sharing this podcast with your friends. And you can leave a review or subscribe on iTunes so we can to you every week, and you can even reach Eric by email Eric at pleinairmagazine.com. Be sure to pick up our free ebook 240 plein air painting tips by some of America’s top painters. It’s free at pleinairtips.com. Tune in next week for more great interviews. Thanks for listening.